Canton Network Fireside - London

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so names such as Daml and Canton can be misheard.

1. 0:05

   hello everybody my name is Simon I'm the one with the loud voice to get your attention but it's not about me it is about of course these two wonderful Gentlemen The Canton Network and all of the world of tokenization so yal if anybody doesn't know could you remind everybody who you are and what digital asset does sure so I'm I'm yal uh thanks thank you everyone for coming I'm the co-founder and CEO of digital asset um

2. 0:36

   we are a company that uh 10 years ago thought that everything will be digital and uh bought bought the domain digital asset.com for uh I think five or $10,000 H and now we're screwed because every time someone searched for digital assets uh they get confused what is this digital asset.com so uh we we are the company believing that um everything will become like I said digital asset whether it's backed by a physical asset

3. 1:06

   or not uh and this whole idea of tokenization of real world assets was really um kind of the the direction that we were going uh after um the problem is that um you know when you start thinking about the likes of ethereum and some of these uh public permissionless chains they Envision a world where everything you know sits on one Ledger and for us that just never made sense uh we had a panel this morning with a bunch of regulators and if you just start thinking about governance and different

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   countries have regulations that are not the same they change at different times well how do you actually change one ledger to meet all of these regulatory requirements so really that's how the idea of Canton came about we have a team in Zurich uh Zurich is uh in Switzerland one country uh that actually is composed of many cantons and every Canton has its own sovereignty uh they can set their

5. 2:04

   rules but they all interoperate under one country called Switzerland so we thought it would be a good name um for a network which is really a network of networks so think about if you are um Goldman or HSBC and you're tokenizing or BMP we have here and you're tokenizing assets so imagine you bring in a digital money market fund and now we have another client cdge uh that does repo or we have ealand that does Securities lending or anybody else that requires

6. 2:38

   collateral now imagine that one of those tokenization applications can actually interoperate with a completely different application in order to provide that that collateral so the idea again of Canton is to give a user experience a feel of one unified network but it's actually broken down into a lot of these Sovereign applications uh that can interoperate with one another that's very helpful and we'll come back and unpack that but we just have to take a moment to recognize the the wonderful

7. 3:09

   Chris J Carlo um again for anybody who has lived under a rock remind everybody of your history a big rock well I I'm probably known for serving as chairman of the US commodity Futures Trading commission but what you may not know is that before I went joined the priesthood that is uh Market regulation I actually spent uh 14 years as a executive with an interdealer broker in fact GFI Group

8. 3:32

   which has its offices a few block from here and I must say it is really comforting being back in a very small room with a lot of City types for deep at the bar swirling champagne it's good to know that things in London don't change at least that much so it's good to be with you um and I'm also a board member of uh of digital asset um I've been a fan of this company since uh I heard about it first with um

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   uh with uh B Masters and and Don Wilson and with the seven Ridge investment I was uh convinced to come on on the board and see through this very exciting development with Kon which we'll be speaking about tonight so that's who I am fantastic Chris and and I think it'd be good to go on the Ark of the tokenization journey because maybe in 2016 maybe even 15 almost for a decade now we've been talking about you know distributed ledgers blockchain not Bitcoin we've been talking about this there's been a lot of talk but a decade

10. 4:32

    on is tokenization of real world assets a technology whose time has come or a technology whose time will never come what's your perspective on that well maybe I can answer that by telling you how I fell down into the distributive Ledger rabbit hole we all have our own those that have gone down have their own stories but mine actually has to do a lot with uh over-the-counter markets and

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    my work at GFI group um GFI group I don't know if it is today but back when I was there in the mid 2000s um GFI had about 80% of the CBS Market trading on its platform and at the time that Leman Brothers fell the uh uh the Federal Reserve Bank of New York estimated based upon gross notional amount of CDs written by banks that they reported annually on their balance sheets that there was about $400

12. 5:27

    billion of protection written against the failure of Leman brothers and they basically extrapolated and said well if there's 400 billion written on Leman Brothers there must be 800 billion on Morgan Stanley and there must be a a billion two a trillion two written on JP Morgan and they came up with a program called the tarp program that's very similar to what a fire brigade does if a house is on fire they wet down all the

13. 5:52

    houses around the house on fire in this case they loaded the balance sheet of all the banks surrounding Leman Brothers and they did that to stop the crisis it struck me as very odd at the time that they were making that calculation because we knew at GFI that every bank that was writing protection was tur turning around and re hedging that protection with other Banks I knew the net figure had to be much lower and I called a professor at at at NYU Called

14. 6:22

    Bruce tuckman and I said Bruce you've done some research in this what do you think the net is and he said well if it's 400 billion in Gross the Nets probably I'm guessing 50 60 80 billion well anyway um I got involved in the writing of what became the Dodd Frank act the swaps provisions and the Obama Administration U recognized my work and asked me to join the cftc and the very

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    first thing I did when I got there was I asked the chief Economist to calculate the net number well he couldn't get it done I became chairman in 2017 I called tuckman I said come work for us and do this calculation by the spring of 2017 we knew the real number the real number on a failure of lieman Brothers was not 400 billion the net number was less than $9 billion and that's now been published by BR Professor Bruce tuckman of NYU think about it if we knew in 2008 that a

16. 7:20

    failure of Leman brothers would have only triggered n billion of default we could have let it fail people would have been lined up around the block to buy it the FED could have bailed it out we would have had policy options that we didn't have well imagine if all those liabilities were on a blockchain and that was the eure moment for me when I read the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper is this is a tool that could

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    prevent the type of Crisis we had in 2008 and all that loss of value destruction that came with it and so I became a huge fan of distributed Ledger technology and crypto and in 2017 we greenlighted the the launch of Bitcoin Futures which was I mean everybody thinks about the United States being behind the rest of the world in 2017 we were ahead of the rest of the world and the best part was getting calls from European Regulators saying don't greenl Bitcoin Futures you're going to cause the fall of Western

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    civilization and I'm laughing because five years later Europe's rushing to get their mic legislation done to get ahead of the Americans but what we did was the first in the world so anyway long story when I left the commission I'm convinced this is the technology of the future this is the internet doing to Banking and finance and money itself what it's already done to social networking and information gathering and and and and

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    entertainment and Leisure and and Retail shopping it's changing everything and it's making all of those activities 247 365 disintermediated activities this is going to change everything we know about finance and what's going to happen is the large Banks which already are kind of quietly devoting huge resources to this with a few breakthroughs all of a sudden the middle tier the next tier banks are all going to have to do this but they're not going to build it themselves they're going to look around and say what's the industrial grade

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    solution for this that works that delivers all the needs we have for privacy built into it but it's interoperable with all of our peers and that's Canton so that's a great segue to some of the challenges with some of the networks you you did sort of mention in the opening some of the benefits of of Canton network but really helped me understand the challenges some of the networks out there yes everybody's heard of the know the ethereum types but there are many other private networks one-off

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    networks ledgers being built for specific problems specific use cases what is the fundamental issue with that design approach and also the fundamental technical challenge with some of the cryptography that's happening that's holding some folks back yeah so so maybe maybe I I will I will say that to me the the three things that you need to solve and to to Really achieve you know what Chris is talking about is the first of

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    all is control Access Control meaning think about um you know Regulators are comfortable with people running heavily regulated applications on the internet even though we know that there are really really bad things that happen on the internet well why are they com able with that because the internet gives you the tools to control access meaning when you know any whatever whatever company

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    bank.com website exists when you go there you can just get access to all of their products and services right so they can control access the second thing is once you put in your password and username assuming you got kyc ml it doesn't mean that you can just see everyone's account information right and again uh in crypto these things seem just how it should be um and and that's

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    because you can have control of privacy so you could actually segment privacy who gets to see what under What scenario and the third one is interoperability so again the internet gives you this user experience that all data can interoperate with one another uh to create again this experience of one big Network so those are the three things uh in order to achieve in my opinion the

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    ability to move Financial Services into DT technology now to achieve the three things is just not simple it takes time um I think Canton had to go through uh at least three or four uh architecture designs um and what the crypto or These permissionless Chains came and said you know what no need for privacy no need for control we just want interoperability yeah and right that and ethereum was the first so what if ethereum said is no privacy no control and everything exists on one Ledger

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    right and and the reality is that now people are starting to understand Regulators are starting to say privacy permissionless but also this one Ledger approach um uh from a very basic physics does not scale yeah right you can just put every application in the world on one Ledger and hope that that thing will scale so then came you know the polygons of the world The Avalanches of the world old and said cool we'll we'll we'll we'll solve the problem slightly different we'll now segment uh and we'll

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    have many ledgers and that's was what they called l2s but again now how do you do privacy so they didn't solve privacy they were just saying now instead of having all the world in one Ledger you could create a small group and imagine you and your buddies play poker we'll track our chips in this one group but again within that one group you don't have privacy yeah so again solving for privacy is is a big Challenge and and the last thing is that a lot of these

28. 13:04

    layer twos can't even interoperate with one another so it's not that I I think that there's necessarily a design flaw I think that it's it's by Design these features right it's different design goals yeah different design goals and for us we never wanted to go after nfts or these these um bare instrument tokens we always want to go after real world assets so for R this control privacy and interoperability but we've seen sort of death by POC death by Pilot for the last

29. 13:36

    decade or so so help me understand where the rubber hits the road on some of this stuff with Canton Network in particular because it's fine to do one transaction 10 transactions but are we starting to see volume come through and how does Canton unlock that so I mean I'll just give a few example and you tell me if those are PC so um with uh Broad we are processing today over I think it's close to two $120 billion of repo every single day uh and I think we're

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    going to get close to two quarter of a trillion by the end of this year uh it has four different repo products you're going to see uh electronic execution venue connects to it to actually start offering electronic trading uh on the repo Market um we have a a Consortium of bank called versana that uh have tokenized credit products so syndicated lending uh uh uh private placements and

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    I think today they're probably close to $2 trillion worth of products uh that have been unboarded uh 15% of the US physical n gas market is uh running post trade every single day on Canton um and then I mentioned the banks uh HSBC just recently issued close to a billion dollar of government debt in in Hong Kong so I don't know I think that what we are trying to do is wait for a period of time because I think that what the industry has done very poor is they sold

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    the value before you could actually see anything real uh I can tell you that on the physical net gas example uh it's been running now close to a year and a half and now we're actually starting to see the numbers um so the participants in the network have seen a 50% Opex reduction when they actually trade with one another wow let me jump in here too you know we talk about time of these things I've often heard people say well you know when's it going to happen as if as if we've been waiting a lifetime

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    there's a very good historical analogy in in 2000 we had something called the.com crash and Time Magazine ran an article referring to a uh a an e-commerce site called pets.com and they called it pets. bomb and mocked the whole notion of e e-commerce the fact of the matter is e-commerce really started coming in the in the 19 late 199 s and it did in fact crash in 2000 the time of pets.com crash there was about 350 million users worldwide of

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    e-commerce the truth is though the pets.com did not fail because people didn't want to buy pet supplies on online it failed because they didn't want to do it using dialup modems they didn't want to do it having to put their credit card information into some dodgy website and they didn't want to wait three weeks for the for the uh pet supplies to arrive it took the buildout of um of of of 4G technology it took the buildout of PayPal it took the

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    buildout of AWS delivery and and same day delivery services for e-commerce to become a reality by 2010 that 350 million users of e-commerce became 2 billion and by 2020 as we're going into the um the lock the co lockdown it was close to 5 billion today it's about 7 billion people today using e-commerce so looking back it all seems logical we all use e-commerce now but 20 years ago people were questioning its very premise infrastructure takes time to build the

36. 17:11

    concept is often sold ahead of the infrastructure buildout but we're talking about here with Canton is infrastructure that's infrastructure that's ready to go and be built on today and you're going to see this happen the direction is set but sometimes it does take a little bit of time I I I like I like because I mean here in Europe there's a good example of a piece of infrastructure that especially in financial services uh which I think took

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    over 10 years which is t2s oh right that thing that thing um so yeah I mean the reality is that moving Financial Services due to regulation due to other pressures that are coming just takes time but I think that for for us at least with Canton and this is you know we're going to talk about a few other things we wanted to actually show that the technology does what it does for for a long period of time rather than again

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    these PC's and kind of promise promise the future the damn Regulators are often the stumbling block to moving forward too so um yeah well absolutely so so moveing moving on then um if if we've challenged that this uh infrastructure can work I I also remember the iPhone being a toy that was never going to get adopted by any serious business person and no no financial institution would ever touch the cloud these things are

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    now changing over time of course uh the Canon Network is entering sort of a new phase uh do you want to just unpack what that phase is and how it goes from some really good point Solutions with meaningful volume to something that can start to connect those things in in a meaningful way so um Canton had its first version I think in 2020 uh and in 2020 what we wanted to do is again start onboarding assets into the technology prove the technology does what it needs

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    to do go through security audits do all of the fun stuff and now I think we have anywhere between uh 15 to 20 projects that are running on Canton and doing some of the examples that I just mentioned but the goal was always again to create this unified Network experience where I can connect into a network and feel like I'm getting I'm getting getting uh this kind of like one network experience and one of the

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    challenges um that a lot of these uh permissioned Applications had is how do I interoperate with one another like do I need to like uh take a Basu instance or a Corda instance and put all of these assets into that one instance we know that that's not realistic so our vision was always to make Canton a public network that again is not permissionless by definition it's actually permission by definition in the sense that I can

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    create a permissionless application but I have to explicitly defined application to be permissionless um and you use the public infrastructure to interoperate a itively kind of the the integration layer between all of these different applications and assets that exist on on um Canton so we've been working on you know legal analysis but also on the technology of of creating public Canton and we are uh ready to uh well not to

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    announce publicly but but maybe in this form among amongst friends that uh within the next two months uh public Canton uh will be launched um and we'll have um but um we'll have I think what's exciting is that you will see institutions that you wouldn't expect to see in attached to public chains actually running the infrastructure so they would be the validators under the hood running the network and the other the other part that to us was extremely

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    important is you're looking at like for for example um recently in ethereum right there was there was a hack or there was an issue and you have vitalic who's very smart and you know is is a inspiration and a and a role model but he just says oh we should just Fork The Ledger and and roll back and everybody goes like sure right like now now now imagine imagine that you have the

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    equivalent in in supplement finality yeah they're like oh just just uh Ken Griffin is a terrible person just just Fork The Ledger and forget about all of citadel's position I mean and I'm making I'm making a silly example but that's effectively what happened right um so to us the the governance of the network was just as critical as the technology under the hood uh and we wanted to make sure

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    that everybody understand that at at digital asset we we take these type of things very seriously so the the other thing that was uh an amazing surprise is that we approached Linux um and uh we told Linux that we would want them to be the the governing body of of Canton and they told us that they haven't agreed to talk to any blockchain uh project they have hyperledger that sits under Linux but the parent organization never agreed they said everything can go to hyperledger uhuh but we are not touching

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    these things and um about um almost two months ago now uh they gave us a green light to form a new project under um under Linux and we're hoping within the next few weeks to kind of officially kick off the foundation and and Linux will be the governing body for Kon wow wow Chris you eloquently spoke about some of the benefits of global 247 365 but when there's overlapping jurisdictions how does a regulator get

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    comfortable with that given given what Canton can do it's going to take time it's going to be complicated um Regulators um are comfortable with the analog system because there's a lot of redundancy built into it there's a lot of pauses built into it you know those those stop the markets for the night are good for platforms but they're also good for Regulators Regulators have people that work through the night figure out what happened during the day if the bank

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    should go under or not oh yeah unfortunately yeah and so this is going to be um difficult for regulars and it's going to re what's hap what happened in the 20th century is certain Regulators the bank of England um the you the US Regulators some of the European Regulators some of the Asian Regulators like Singapore and Japan have demonstrated leadership that other countries have followed in their regulatory processes we're going to need those leaders to emerge once again to help the rest of the world through these

50. 23:54

    changes one of my biggest disappointments is having I think having shown leadership four years ago I think we we've lost the lead in helping the rest of the world understand this transformational nature and I think we need to return to a leadership role in the United States that's been our traditional role of embracing Innovation and helping to build the structure you know what's interesting about the first

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    wave of the internet the internet of information the West really not only dominated the principles and the standards but also dominated the in institutions yeah like the internet society and I can that really set the tone and made sure that the first wave of the internet was one that was an open architecture that closed societies and tyrants couldn't control for their own purposes or easily control for their own

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    purposes and and we dominated the you know the values that surrounded it now we're going into a new wave of the internet an internet of value where we're going to place value ownership other indices of value on in on on networks and sadly um the West is relatively muted in setting the standards the the the the the the nation that is very loud is China China is determined to make sure this next wave of the internet is one

53. 25:16

    that is safe for surveillance safe for censorship and safe for control and the West isn't really putting up too much of a fight it's quite disappointing the United States is quite absent I think the EU is doing their part but we need to change that Dynamic and it may be that it's actually not the the Western public sector but it may be the Western private sector that actually influences the debate in terms of the values and that's a another reason why you know I

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    get so excited about Canton because the values of privacy the values of both a uh a distributed Ledger but one in which the different individual parties it's quite democratic can control their own destiny within the network actually kind of not it looks like Swiss democracy it looks like actually Western democracy in a lot of ways and I think it's very fitting so it may be that this time

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    around the Western public sector is the last to arrive on the scene and the private sector has got to hold those Democratic Values until the Cavalry rides in like in an old western movie to save the so you all um close me out here sort of uh there's probably folks in the room who've been interested in this topic for while hence them being here but there's also some folks that have got to go sell it back in their organization um and maybe dealing with some cynicism oh we've heard this

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    tokenization story oh it's all PR it's all headlines uh what do you say to really if if you change jobs tomorrow you're working in an institution buy side sells side and you have to really get momentum for fy2 we need to go do this why um so I think that the the problem that we had as an industry is that uh the transformation that was sold was too radical and I think that the way I would pitch it is no different than

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    how you should pitch any business idea very clear Roi uh there's a lot of capital constraints interest rates are noted an environment where money is being printed for free um so I think that um rather than going for the radical like we can talk about what is a long a long-term Vision but if I had to pitch it within a company that is you know not necessarily building infrastructure like ourselves but actually needs to execute um I would I would actually think about what is the

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    what is the most limited use case that I can first of all show that the technology does what it's supposed to be doing and it actually have some kind of return on the investment and the return again the the net return doesn't have to be positive but it actually provides some value so I'll give an example when we start with with broadridge the first product that they launch lach was intra

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    dealer repo not the most exciting product in the world but actually if you manage your collateral more efficiently you could get uh less less uh fees on on on messages that you send and you actually can get a better Capital treatment so there is some return to it but it's just so easy to roll it out so we rolled that product out fairly quick but it's real product yeah it's a real product the clients started seeing and then I remember UBS was uh one of the

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    early ones they're like okay we can see it works it's great but we'll only join it if now you do bilateral repo yeah and then there was bilateral repo and then we uh introduce uh um intraday repo and now we're introducing sponsored repo so I think that uh specifically in this space people see like some of the public chains that are out there and seeing some people on stages and saying like

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    this will change financial services this will do this this will do this and then you go to your boss who's like focused on like bottom line or Top Line has so many different things coming and they hear a pitch like that and they're like get out right and I actually think the same with Regulators right sometimes you go with this pitch to a regulator and they're like okay everything you know

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    for the last hundred years forget about it this is going to be different and they're like heard that one before I heard that one before exactly so to me I I would say no different than any other business case we we you have to if if if this technology requires to think about business differently then I just don't think I don't think you'll be successful I always described that the Goldilocks and Three Bears problem of pitching I

63. 29:35

    have to find something that's not too big not too small but just right to get approved and show value that's that's absolutely it Chris is there anything I haven't asked you that uh that I wanted to and and uh that that you wanted to point out to the audience and and while you're thinking on that uh ladies and gentlemen I will invite you to ask questions so so do do think up any questions if you if you have them in in just a moment but any final thoughts I I

64. 29:58

    I think one of the biggest challenge I think this Innovation is coming uh I think the future is very much going to be a kaleidoscope of both U highly decentralized systems of value like Bitcoin and ethereum and then highly centralized on some run by big tech companies in the form of stable coins and others run by governments I think it's only a matter of time before China exports its uh ecny it's its digital Yuan to developing countri around the world as a white label product and

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    giving them Network value with their Belt Road initiatives what so excites me about this is I think it it actually um is the type of digital Network that can be relatively readily adopted in the financial service Community who are going to find themselves increasingly competing with those um uncontrollable or or highly controlled digital networks um I I think the future is going to be one in which we all have to get our head around uh distributed ledgers and distributed Ledger technology this is

66. 31:05

    going to transform everything we know about Finance uh everything we know about value um and it's going to be you know when you combine that with smart contracts and AI it's going to take off very very rapidly and I think every major financial institution is going to we want to be part of one or more networks and is going to look around and say which ones can we both maintain our

67. 31:28

    own control but have that connectivity to everybody else Innovation wins at the end of the day any any questions before we close out here any any show hands one at the front here yes thanks um so the way I see BL sh and the centralization in war is that it tries to take the money on of the traditional banking reals and creates its equivalence for the new internet uh in a more independent fashion right so in a way is that for competing

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    a bit with the exis exive financial service players I I actually think about uh blockchain technology is is uh slightly different so when I think about what is capital markets Capital markets are many different ledgers that when a financial transaction needs to happen you need to update these ledgers to represent the new state of the world right so when you do settlement you're

69. 32:24

    going to take an asset Ledger and you're going to credit debit who are the owners of the asset and you're going to take the cash Ledger and you're going to credit and debit those Ledger that's a very basic imagine now you have a custodian a broker dealer all of these people will have ledgers and they need to update them the problem is that you know historically before computers we were updating these ledgers by Wheeling

70. 32:45

    uh you know uh carts with certificates and that's how we credit and debit systems and then the internet the computers came and we started sending messages to one another messages inherently have a Reconciliation ation problem because when I send a message to someone the only acknowledgement that I get is I receive the message I can't verify that if I send you a message credit and debit these accounts that you

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    actually did it until settlement happens and I can see if the money actually went into my account or the assets came into my account so from my perspective all that blockchain is doing is giving the ability to reconcile or adjust ledgers automically in much more efficient manner so the way I think about innovation technology generally speaking is technology makes connecting a Tob as more more and more efficient so if today you need a person to ask a passenger

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    where do they need to go from and then pick up a radio to ask a car to go and pick that person technology will replace so there are intermediaries in financial services that are saying hey connecting a to B is really hard and yes I think in some cases blockchain will remove it but there are many Financial players that are actually giving providing risk they they underwriting risk they're providing

73. 34:07

    actual services that just by connecting a Tob becoming more efficient it doesn't mean that you don't need these services in the middle I give like a lot of people thought custodians will get out of the world custodians is a prehistorical name right they don't actually provide custody today they actually do asset servicing they do many other functions so blockchain technology is is not going to dis intermediate custodians you still need to underwrite

74. 34:31

    fixed income products you will still need broker dealers you'll still need access to markets you'll still need Banks so I I actually don't think that it is intermediate but it does create opportunities for new entrance to be able to provide these Services more efficiently uh one last question if there's any anybody else that has one yeah so you got expanding on that question do you see a vision whereby the

75. 34:55

    both the asset and the cash late all on CA or multi- DT networks and if it's the latter how do you make sure that you Havey across multi deal yeah so um uh yes first of all to the first part yes I see cash coming into Canton natively hopefully within the next month you will see potentially a repo transaction being processed against digital cash um so that will be very exciting um but to the question of interoperability

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    um I was actually yesterday on a round table with the fed and they asked that question that was literally where they kicked off and I said why do you care about interop ability so much because to me interop ability is a business problem meaning if today someone told us that we will accept Bitcoins as eligible initial margin into a clearing house we will interoperate into Bitcoin I mean but

77. 35:52

    currently there are no assets in other networks that our clients are saying Hey I want to natively interoperate with those things so first of all we need to get to a point where there's a business case because I think that a lot of times regulators and our clients sometimes are saying can you prove to me that you can interoperate and we as a commercial business you know we need to focus again on spending money and effort on things

78. 36:16

    that will yield returns so we we you know we've done some experiments we showed that we can interoperate but we're not putting a good amount of resources so first of all there needs to be a business case and then second of there are multiple ways of interoperating H and I think actually that the tokenization platforms are in my opinion the best entities to offer inoperability because it's not a very

79. 36:40

    complicated inoperability I I I created an asset on one chain I can connect to multiple chain and I can be like a third party offering that interop ability Circle for example when they say interoperability of usdc that's exactly what they do they burn usdc on one chain they minted on another chain they don't really do an interoperability and then there are some messaging solution uh are the most Innovative company in the world uh Swift is is offering you know a

80. 37:09

    messaging interoperability across blockchain which we will use uh there's onera they're offering messaging based uh connectivity between chains which is in my opinion a good step uh to offer connectivity um between between ledgers so to me it's first of all let's find the the business case why to interoperate with something else it's a solvable problem but let's do it when the time is right well ladies and gentlemen that's all we have time for at

81. 37:34

    this particular moment but you guys will be sticking around for a little bit people can ask you questions I've got to run to a dinner but I know you all will so okay so you all will be here for all of your questions please no come on tell talk about the podcast oh yeah we are going to be launching a podcast in the not too distant future with Simon is going to to we have a wonderful sponsor in digital asset um

82. 38:00

    and the podcast will be called tokenized those of you that recognize The Voice May remember me from blockchain Insider um which is a very popular sort of institutionally focused uh digital asset podcast for a number of years we'll be partnering as well with uh visa and Kai Sheffield over there will be my co-host and the idea is to have conversations like this but while you're commuting or whilst you're on a Sunday afternoon you want something a little bit different

83. 38:24

    and a little bit more fun so we call the podcast is having a two drink minimum uh we bring that level of energy and I hope you've had a two drink minimum and really enjoyed your evening thank you so much everybody uh you'll be able to check it out on iTunes soon