PZF2024 2 July Insights Stage: Mobilising Tokenised Assets Transforming Institutional Capital Flows

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so names such as Daml and Canton can be misheard.

1. 0:00

   welcome everybody to the 3.0 Forum it's the third uh third time that this is happening uh 1.0 and 2.0 was a lot about use cases in theory proof of Concepts um testing Etc will this 3.0 be the start or has it already kicked in that we are in a production environment how does the market look like what are you playing with currently Eric well yeah I guess I'll start with uh uh it's very cool to be on such an

2. 0:40

   esteemed panel of The Visionaries who are changing Capital markets I definitely am the odd man out up here on stage um on Monday we had a we had a really fantastic announcement 30 plus organizations came together and announced the promotion of the Canton Network's Global synchronizer and Canton coin have been put into production uh this marks the official categorization of the Canon Network as a public permission Network which is a

3. 1:07

   pretty cool distinction we'll talk about a little bit over this panel I think um and you know what this means for me is that the tyranny of public permissionless and private permission is finally over uh I want to thank uh the Linux Foundation they're they're here they supported this launch in a couple key ways uh first all the code for the global synchronizer and the Canton coin have been uh open sourced and uh and uh

4. 1:32

   provided to the hyperledger soon to be lfd uh so that there's Community governance over all the code of this service and the second way that they supported this launch was that they supported the formation of a foundation that will help govern this infrastructure in Canton coin uh and so you know again it's just a really important distinction from what is ordinarily considered just a a false choice between public permissionless and

5. 1:56

   private permissioned and I think this term public mission is yet to really be fully defined in the in the ecosystem but the way we like to think about it is just think about the internet it's a it's an experience that's already deeply familiar to everybody here it's clearly a public network anyone with a browser can access anything in that ecosystem everybody goes to the same place everybody can find all the apps but that

6. 2:20

   doesn't mean I get to see all the bank accounts in HSBC it doesn't mean I get to see all the Securities positions at the DTC so when I go to join one of these apps I step into their boundary of control and that's exactly the way that Canton works with one very important distinction from the internet today where we have native interoperability which again I think is going to be a a big topic here um and so you know we're

7. 2:44

   really excited to have the opportunity to start to take the trillions of dollars of real world assets that are moving through the Canton Network and start to connect them together and demonstrate what it means to no longer have silos and messaging and reconciliation but instead have this native transactional experience across all the different apps in the ecosystem so very proud to be one of the members that have launched this decentralized

8. 3:08

   ecosystem I guess maybe put simply public blockchain is finally open for business for regulated institutions and real world assets at scale cool congrats again for the announcement John Matthew what happened since the uh green Bond issuance in February mat do you want to St so um I think a lot has happened since then I think the significance of that transaction um which um HSBC Goldman and

9. 3:40

   Syndicate four other Banks did in Hong Kong is just actually related to some of the themes that Eric has mentioned there is this Market needs to scale um I think the significance of that transaction was probably the first time across Capital markets we saw something that Benchmark liquidity size uh we saw um over subscription in the primary issuance we saw secondary trading we saw repo activity and I think a few observations on why we experienced that I think one

10. 4:10

    of the key decisions was integrating a natively digital platform into the account access channels of a CSD I think it's very important um When developing digital asset markets to make sure investor access is as easy as possible um uh investment firms are very busy uh there's there's no time to build specialist connectivity to entirely novel platforms I think so that's a good way of kickstarting liquidity um and seeing those kind of uh Real World Market impacts and I think going forward

11. 4:42

    we're going to see more transactions of Benchmark size not just in Hong Kong but elsewhere and some of the infrastructure which Eric has talked about can certainly Aid that kind of Market development I think yeah I think you touched on many of the key points I mean from my perspective I think the markets really is focused on creating scale and you need to get that through interoperability but you've also got to have the confidence of privacy and

12. 5:06

    control and I think you know the announcement yesterday I think was you know a long time in the coming and I think it's fantastic to really see how that kind of moves the market forward from my perspective a lot of the deals that we're focused on are primarily around like I say creating a market liquidity is key naturally you know everyone talks about it easier to say than actually kind of do um and I think and we'll talk about this a little bit

13. 5:29

    more in the later on in the panel I think there are different ways that you can do that over time and it depends on the jurisdiction as well um but I think you know you take Asia for example there's 40 csds so it's a very very fragmented market so it's interesting as you need to get the scale how many and which csds you actually would plug in to your platform um but liquidity scale and

14. 5:52

    I think just getting the markets coales you know around platforms networks I think networks is probably the better word to use use and and I was actually kind of talking to the top management at the bank yesterday and I think what's actually fascinating to see over the last six months has been the breadth of Institutions become much more active in this space and it manifests itself in different ways it can be through kind of the tokenization of money market funds

15. 6:18

    to retail but what it does do it gives people the kind of the the intellect and the knowledge and understanding how to do that and then as you you know transition probably more to the institutional side there are more regulations around what you can do but the focus is still this game scale and liquidity so what kind of real world transfers examples do you see in the market NY so just building on the the comments and Eric congratulations I you know we do

16. 6:49

    agree it's a it's a Monumental step in in the right direction um it is it is you know just to Echo it is a it's about adoption it is about SK it's about liquidity and and risk management um and it does start in the infrastructure I mean Matt just said how many csds we need to connect our platforms and I think that is part um the the uh you know the baniz of the infrastructure for

17. 7:14

    digital has been uh something that's kept us all back um so I think with Canton what you do have is now we have the highway and uh we've got to be able to build U the rails that that or the cars that that go on it in a in a way that's uh more uh where we talk to each other and today we do have Financial Market infrastructure um I think the uh story of our demise has been greatly exagerated uh these fmis will be around for a while they will continue to provide that service and the question is

18. 7:46

    how do we work with John and Matt and Nelson and everybody else to get a common infrastructure that's maybe at 80% uh that talks each other I'm not telling everybody to leave their platforms that is not realistic but we do need to figure out a way to leverage things that are today operational so we can speed up that that adoption I think markets are getting uh anxious uh I think our common investors are getting um anxious so it is really you called it

19. 8:14

    3.0 it is really time to now to flip this equation um and be able to speed up adoption uh there's a lot of goodness um in this technology and we're not able to harvest it mainly because of our fragmentation and actually kind of you know Le in onto that so John has developed his platform on daml and the Canton protocol and so have we so now you've got this kind of broader Canton Network this ability to be kind of

20. 8:39

    seamlessly interoperable you know does wet the appetite and shows you know how you can really start to build out that Network you know what we hope you know reasonably short order as and when we as a US Bank are able to participate on a public chain public permission chain yeah I I think that too often the tokenization conversations you were having before were about how do I put an asset in the ecosystem but if you think about a simple Margin Call that turns

21. 9:01

    around triggers uh someone going into the repo Market taking some asset turning into Cash delivering cash that's not just you know a couple different systems together that's the margin system the register of the security the custodian that's facilitating it the Commercial Bank the cash system and all that is really done quite sequentially today or with periods of risk and so all that friction and risk is really what we're talking about removing in this

22. 9:24

    process but you can't think about tokenization as just a single asset you have to think about it as a portfolio of systems that have to work together in concert and so that that's really why we designed the technology the way that we did these two companies will always have their own infrastructure to believe we're going to put them into some single shared governance system a single platform between them I think is quite naive but they need to have all the

23. 9:47

    experience as if they are in the same system and again we have elements of that in the internet we're just missing this transactional side and so that's this very specific problem that we're trying to solve is to give all of the entities here as much agency as they need to be successful and bring Innovation into the market but not let them miss the long tale of opportunity that something like a single L1 or Global layer one might provide from an interoperability perspective I could

24. 10:12

    just also say on that I think um if you look at the range of participants on stage today um obviously HSBC and Goen outs compete but we cooperate we're all connected to dtcc to CMU which is the CSD of the hkma so it's very normal I think to build into connectivity I think it's worth keeping in mind how nent this Market is um I said on a event earlier today at this conference that it

25. 10:37

    shows how nice and the market is that every time we do a transaction we put out a media release I mean that's that's doesn't suggest a liquid market so I think what we're talking about here in terms of the infrastructure that we can all cooperate on together is just drive first of all a number of Benchmark liid transactions but we'll know we've succeeded when we stop stating every time we've done a transaction when transactions are business as usual I think that's an important point to reach

26. 11:02

    your spot on John I think this Innovation by a Thousand Cuts or I press release hopefully will start to quiet down a little bit and uh we really get down to there's an element that is really not sexy about what we do and this is the infrastructure the post trade side of this that we really need to just you know roll up our sleeves get it done and we the good news is we've got a blueprint not everything needs to be tossed away I think there's a lot

27. 11:27

    that we can bring together um that would allow us to operate tokenized and non- tokenized uh um transactions in in a way uh to to you know allow John and Matt and others uh to continue to operate uh as business as usual it it is naive to think we're going to toss away millions and years uh and Decades of infrastructure in in exchange of rails um with Canon today we definitely have

28. 11:51

    the good you know a good path forward uh but we we do and to your point uh we we compete on one end actually as Market infrastructure I don't compete anymore so that's a good thing uh but we you know the the the industry is uh is very collegial we compete on on ends and we work together and this is a time for all of us to come together and build this new 3.0 infrastructure uh to quote you Darko so back to um your earlier

29. 12:16

    question Doo about whether we are at uh which maturity level we are in so I think John mentioned it um the time that we do not make um press release uh on our next isurance uh that means it's a ongoing business as usual now we are probably at the pilot and that um business as usual stage in between and uh so we're happy to work with um um these partners and congratulate um Eric for the announcement yesterday for CSD in Hong Kong um CMU is the um is is a

30. 12:51

    depository um similar to dtcc we run similar function but of course you guys are much U bigger and uh we are actually um looking forward to a a world an ideal world that we have a common uh blockchain networks with um um digital assets that all csds can connect to and we can issue and we can complete the whole B life cycle up there but I know it's a it it may be a a t order so I think it's a very good step um um that we have uh in the past three years we

31. 13:25

    start from uh a very ideal stage uh together with the bis Innovation Hub we call that project Genesis and it just talk about the possibility of digital asset and then the year after um it's 2022 work with uh kman um kman sax dap and we achieve uh onchain um DVP so we have both cash tokens and and digital asset on chain and last well this year earlier this year work with u HSBC Orion I think it's all important steps that we all have to take to go through the

32. 13:59

    learning cycles and I think a lot of the challenges that we see is not just the technical part technology I think can accomplish what we want to accomplish but you talking about um um Matt you mentioned about 40 csds I think the whole world I think we're close to 100 probably exactly yeah and um currently we are relying on bilateral linkages for example Hong Kong we are connected to

33. 14:23

    EUR C and clear stream and also the two major CSD in China but you're talking about 100 of CSD is making all these bilateral connections is is humongous uh I think if there is a common layer one of course uh we can all connect to it it it will be the ideal situation yeah I better stop it are there any other steps that are needed in order that and sorry for the football anecdote I mean it's happening across the border and you saw the game yesterday from Portugal hopefully where it's not sufficient to

34. 14:57

    just have a Cristiano Ronaldo which is an individual so you need to act as a team like the csts all over the world what is needed in order to really hit this highway you you were mentioning and then also get the liquidity so do we need to solve interoperability in order to get liquidity and everybody playing as one team or or what are the roadblocks that are still hindering to really go into business as usual

35. 15:29

    without any announcements that the somebody has done a transaction or so uh I can start generically and then they could speak to their more specific experiences but the things that have uh Gone deeper into production that we have as customers started a little bit more on the edge you know for for the participants here they're they're more focused on their core businesses and that's definitely a careful methodical

36. 15:53

    Journey but for someone that might be starting um a challenger business or on something that is complimentary to something that they already do a little bit more Green Field uh they can get a lot deeper sooner because they are pioneering that path and figuring it out what they run into is just really the education about why someone would want to adopt this and again what you have to prove early in that journey is the direct benefit to the participants and

37. 16:18

    being able to express that clearly make the on-ramp for those participants as seamless as possible and so that means you know finding the areas where you where the differentiation adds value I think there's a lot of like wholesale s Innovation where everything is changing and we're going to even challenge what's your role in this ecosystem and and I think that if you're going to upset the whole apple cart that much you just you're creating a whole bunch of headwind whereas if you say look we're

38. 16:41

    going to still connect these two ways to this system and I'm going to change this one little part of the workflow and I'm going to unlock a few million dollars of savings for all of our participants annually that's a much easier sell and and it I think we tend to all try to do too much at first um I think because there's just a lot of enthusiasm as you can hear from from the stage but if you temper Your Enthusiasm and say let's solve a very discreet problem and just

39. 17:04

    build on that and have a little bit more long-term patience I think that that's been the path for the larger volume by successful customers that we have so far I mean Eric the uh the challenge I've seen working in my old job so John and I had similar career path um and now is we're not taking this opportunity to try to reimagine our operating models our distribution models right so so where we're seeing people get stuck is all right I used to do it with 17 steps on

40. 17:34

    Excel I need to do it with 17 steps on you know D abely and um and from and be interested in John and Matt and Nelson's opinion here is where I've seen success where success is notable is when people have had the courage of their conviction have taken a step back and remodeled uh their approach whether it's their operational approach their risk thinking um or their distribution um so so the

41. 17:59

    announcement says we got to figure out a way to connect all these csds I'm going in my head well maybe we do need to take a step back and figure out if there's a better way for us to interconnect rather than these bilateral uh connections that we have I don't know if that is feasible or not but that is something that we all owe it to our look I think it's a really good point and I think the transaction that we did in Europe or be a year or

42. 18:20

    two ago year and a half ago did just that so we actually just wanted to see what the whole digitization of the life cycle would look without a CSD which know was a bit controversial maybe but actually you can you can actually create an efficiency across the whole life cycle so often when you have a CSD plugged in it does give you access to liquidity so there's kind of a longer term play to your point so you're actually being a little bit more bold but you can get the settlement within a short period of time which you can with

43. 18:44

    the CSD but then the post trade just becomes an awful lot more efficient your authorative source of Truth is the blockchain and that to us actually kind of does present a unique model that is different to the status quo I think both will work and I think both will coexist but I think as you look at trying to extract all the value from the underlying technology I think that is a very good point to to highlight um which you know as I said is controversial I

44. 19:07

    think the US is I I don't think it's controversial Matt I mean I think there's a realization that the fmis will play a different role right and uh in the techn today in the in our environment we we sort of plug the inefficiencies of the market right and as custodians you do the same thing and as you do with FMI so the that's why I said like the fmis I'm sorry the blockchain allows us the opport take a step back so the fmis will continue like

45. 19:31

    somebody's got to provide a good control location somebody's got to manage that liquidity but the roles that will fulfill will be different with different tools that doesn't mean they get erase but hopefully they'll get out of the way uh to be able to provide a lot more efficiency and using the example of Europe and you talk about some of the challenges so I think it makes the whole life cycle much more efficient the challenge we have is because of csdr we

46. 19:54

    can't create a secondary market and so one of the things we're focused on is being active in the EU pilot to demonstrate that you can digitize the whole life cycle you don't need a CSD and you can actually use an MTF to create that secondary liquidity in the pilot and that you know could be a good template for an alternative may I could say just build on all those comments and a great the direction of travel I think if we take this up to the highest possible level

47. 20:19

    way I see it there's three stages in this market and the first stage is where we perform a set of experiments and we admit that those experiments for Market participants are just let liquid than conventional markets uh we've done that HSBC um and that's an important learning stage I think the various transactions in Europe are examples of that yeah the second stage and I also agree by the way I don't think it's a all controversial not to use csds because we're all trying

48. 20:43

    out different things and cran facts on the ground I would say the second stage which I think we're just in now we just moved into is we're doing transactions which are true Benchmark size so the transaction we we all mentioned in Hong Kong that was more than a billion US of demand so we can say with confidence that's Benchmark size kind of transactions I think there'll be a lot more of those um but I think it's the third stage which we need to focus on

49. 21:07

    because if it's worth doing all of this it's worth doing it because it makes markets better it makes them more liquid and certainly I think there's a lot of benefits of this technology but I think the principal benefit is more rapid settlement finality of transactions allows you to trade more frequently uh greater trade in velocity and I think we can realize that across some of the infrastructure Arrangements that we've all been talking about um and just the

50. 21:33

    last word is we spend a lot of time talking about interoperability to realize liquidity and I think it is a means to that end but I personally it's just a preference I like interconnectedness because I think the point is our systems where we um work together today they're not an identical set of systems but we need to make sure all our systems are interconnected and work in an efficient manner I think

51. 21:57

    things like um you know your announcement the last few days Eric just really helped boost that and accelerate that progress so I think that's an exciting way to get more liquidity into these products one thing we've not really touched on and actually if you look at the title of the actual panel transform transforming institutional Capital flows and actually the use of the technology for moving collateral across the system we had a conference last week and I think a lot of people who came away from that were actually

52. 22:22

    surprised by the sheer scale of activity already in that market now the scale may be inter affiliate there may maybe some kind of interbank activity but what was kind of striking was you're talking not you know hundreds of millions you're talking tens and tens of billions and to me actually that's the most exciting thing about the technology today it's not something that's a pipe dream actually if you use it for kind of

53. 22:44

    intraday liquidity purposes be that repo be that FX thinking about repo on the term basis and even kind of the the collateralization probably a little bit further down the line for derivatives this can have an absolutely profound impact you can risk the market and you can reduce kind of counterparty risk and just make the whole thing just much more seamless and that is something that actually can happen today the trick is

54. 23:07

    scaling it which I think the market you know is very focused on and there's a number of you know people who are working and involved in that space and I see Amy over there give a shout out to him and you know I think that's really important because you know we've we've done this on a micro level and shown to the firm we can actually create value but others across the market have probably done it much bigger and there's real value there today maybe Nelson real example from the bond

55. 23:33

    issuance so what have been because on your list of the announcement a lot of law firms uh we didn't touch on regulation which I love as a lawyer uh because at the end of the day Innovation happens first with the business the front that you do change your business and and and try to innovate but there is always the last sword which is to regulation because you're in a heavily regulated environment yeah totally um

56. 23:58

    you know the public internet was not regulated in the beginning so that's why it can develop u in today's shape you know but uh financial sector unfortunately we we are heavily regulated U like it a lot but uh I think it's it's required uh because of our previous instance um so in our previous example I think um I probably used the HSBC R and probably is the more latest one we actually hire three law firms uh

57. 24:24

    to look at various different things so um a lot of the audience your sources ated um so you may have thought of oh okay aized assets it's uh it's new but in fact uh we we do have the new and all connected together the new one is the is the blockchain network but uh is the JP Rion but underneath is still the Legacy uh platforms so we connected both allowing um the um the asss to be

58. 24:50

    transferred or in between this uh the two two two platforms why is that because um the only only by I think uh it is s um similar in other jurisdictions that you have designated systems that you can uh allow uh finality um transaction finality so if you want to have the same finality for the tokenized asset layer uh a typical steps that you will take is to make this toonize platform as an extension of your

59. 25:21

    existing platform so that is legally one way to achieve that of course you can you can you can amend the law right but but I think the easiest way to achieve um our common goal is how we can tokenize as it allow wider uh participation it's uh that one is actually uh one one of the experience that we have and we probably have spent um John probably 60% of our resources on on legal aspects or lots of lawyers lawyers having a good time on this yeah um maybe I could just say add to that I

60. 25:52

    think it illustrates a few things which which are pretty interesting globally the Hong Kong examples because um um as Nelson says you can connect a natively digital platform like our platform to a CSD and offer those account routes um our platform is in Luxembourg as well and there we perform the Securities Transfer under a particular set of licenses in Luxembourg which are quite similar but not the same as CSD licenses

61. 26:15

    so I think in each jurisdiction there's opportunities for different regulatory constructs which can realize security settlement and then the other dimension is whether we're interested and I think we're all interested in both in Native digital issuances or tokenized copies of existing bonds I think both have a place um and we need to keep in mind that there's obviously a vast range of existing assets so tokenized copies

62. 26:39

    could be particularly appropriate there but it's interesting for all of us I think to be doing natively digital issuances as well so there's lots of different flavors of this and it all goes to that um concept of mobilizing capital and um Capital flows exactly yeah and there's there's a lot of design in Canton that takes into account these requirements uh if you think about how a lot of the other layer ones work there's this concept of shared validation and I just think that puts you into an entirely different legal agreement in

63. 27:05

    terms of well who really controls these assets how do you secure them how are you the party that guarantees that this gets updated in your system specifically and you know I'm looking at the DTC in this particular way they have some very nice sort of designations about them being the controlling party on that ultimate Ledger the moment you make that two validators or three are they still completely in control and in Canton you don't have to make that decision you can design EXA ly who is the validator for

64. 27:29

    each piece of data and how and under what conditions and so giving these parties the tools to meet all their control and existing regulatory requirements allows them to focus on more of the interesting regulatory things you've been talking about in terms of can we settle this legally without a CSD what does it mean to move this collateral across these borders instead of just trying to like beg please please please change the regulation so I don't have to control my asset anymore and then I can get to this

65. 27:53

    stuff so we're really focused on making sure that we've designed this to give them the the tools to not have to require a change to get to market now and only to to seek those for the additional benefits I think that's an really important Point uh We've hidden behind the confusion or on regulations for a while it may that may apply to the crypto world don't get me wrong but in the markets we dabble in I mean we're

66. 28:17

    we're of the position of you know same asset same risk uh same regulation and uh so as long as we operate under those premise now it would be nice to have harmonized regulations maybe someday that will be a pipe dream uh but for right now we do believe that we have enough to be able to push adoption we may need tweaks here and there but um I think it's all our common experience

67. 28:40

    that when you do Engage The Regulators and you work with them you eventually get to a good spot may take longer than we'd like but we eventually get there um so you know with with the announcements that you have today with some of the uh results that we've had from the various proof of Concepts there's really no reason why if somebody really wants to digitize uh their environment that we can't we can't just push forward uh so

68. 29:04

    hiding behind the regulations I think it's been something that we've been able to break down thanks to the pioneering work this this you know most people on this panel have done and we just we just need to move forward it's time great it's really time yep yep awesome does it also help that uh probably in the media there is so much attention also on the retail side I mean many banks are now

69. 29:27

    offering cryptocurrencies to their clients from an investment perspective so it's seen as a as an asset class for for clients does that help or does it harm at the end of the day for institutional flows I think it says more of a tone I think this year when you think which is probably what you're alluding to a little bit so the the SEC approving the Bitcoin ETFs the ability to trade those

70. 29:50

    and hopefully the same's going to happen with eth psychologically that kind of changes the narrative at you know top of organizations because suddenly you bringing crypto into the kind of mainstream if you will with a product that has investor protections and can be traded in the way any other traditional asset can and so that then makes people more positively predisposed to the broader use of the technology across the financial markets as Daft as it sounds

71. 30:15

    and so that's why this year you have seen this kind of psychological shift you know I've witnessed it and I know many others I talked to Across the market so kind of indirectly yes I think it does have a very positive impact I I think it's a useful tactic for many there there's a really strong pool of demand that allows them to enter into the new ecosystem in a pretty narrow way and then how they lever that into a broader business or how they turn that

72. 30:40

    into a bigger opportunity I think it's just a very useful tactic um yeah and you know it's not necessarily the strategy itself agree every step is a good step yes yes absolutely very we good I always talk about this as well I'm going back to Nadine's last point if you actually look at kind of how the regulations have evolved over the last four years it's mightly impressive actually when you

73. 31:02

    take a step back um you know across the globe there's been huge huge progress you've got Clarity and I think you know just reemphasizing that point I don't think you can really hide behind the regulations um and also the 60% of your budget going on legal cost is a bit scary I know we spent a fortune but I think a lot of people have done the initial work um which I think is hugely helpful and then people will be able to leverage that and hopefully not have to

74. 31:25

    pay anywhere close to kind of what some of us have I think also Darko um as well as all these points about um mature and regulation I think it is in a very good State and an increasingly large number of jurisdictions I think the other thing which has impeded progress over the last few years but I think this is now um on its way to get solved is having safe reliable General forms of digital money

75. 31:49

    so you you touched on crypto there but I think the conversations around wholesale cbdcs um in jurisdictions which want to take that path tokenized deposits that's something we're very focused on and I know the banks are as well and I think having that money movement leg um happening in a safe manner which financial institutions are very comfortable with Will mean that we can exchange digital digital assets and

76. 32:11

    tokenized copies of existing assets uh realize that settlement finality for asset transfer in a more rapid manner again that's my theme of accelerating the market um achieving transfers more quickly freeing up cash just going faster but in a completely safe way the institutions are very comfortable with so for me the two things that have retied development have been Rory Clarity and safe reliable forms of

77. 32:35

    digital money I think um one of those is mostly solved and I think the second one is moving towards being solved I think yeah I mean digital money is complicated I mean everyone desperately wants it on chain for all the reasons you know that that are obvious but it's it's yeah it's complicated you know both at The Sovereign level and you know from even from a bank perspective last almost 4 minutes let's

78. 32:59

    look into the crystal ball and make some predictions for 4.0 next year so I hope this panel will meet again next year uh starting with with Nelson what will you talk next year about um shall we look at the Euro 2024 result first no kidding um so next year I think uh I well it may not be a crystal boy is my wish that uh we can achieve some form of interconnectivity of multiple platforms to allow a much better uh asset mobility

79. 33:38

    and technology is there I don't think um uh it is limiting us uh for achieving that I think it all it takes is the stakeholders to get together yeah um I hope uh that we would have more of a virtual Global CSD structure around the world where we can move things uh in real time um as we look at markets potentially starting to trade 247 I mean it looks like it's gaining some momentum that we can move things with intense velocity around the world so and hopefully reimagine the

80. 34:12

    plumbing yeah and I guess following on from that I think from my perspective seeing real scale through collateral Mobility because I think the whole Market Buy sell side FIS all can benefit from that and so seeing a proper commercialization and then that's a really good blueprint in terms of the use of the technology yeah I agree with those points I think maybe the immediate thing will be Benchmark transactions Benchmark science transactions

81. 34:36

    particularly in fixed income becoming just ba as I said earlier I think we're going to see those happening more frequently and as those happen more frequently and people start to pay attention I think the points that Nadine and Nelson and Matt have made just um infrastructure becom more interconnected more collateral movement and just realizing the value of the pieces we've all put place over the last couple of years I can think that's perfectly

82. 35:00

    realistic one other broad adoption of the Cel Network there you go t yeah I I the thing that will happen by this time next year is we will knock down this uh really strict split between crypto native and trafi uh when you look at who are the challengers and who are really driving the crypto native ecosystem you find legitimate institutions you know you look at the yield bearing stable coins or tokenized money market funds that yield is being generated in the US Treasury repo markets so can we take someone that is

83. 35:31

    issuing a crypto native brand new asset and tie its yield and its workflows into trafy things like repo so that the creation Redemption of this new asset is seamless relative to the risk markets that it's backed by and so we'll use a lot of those new Challenger ecosystems and they're large Trad five participants to start to break down this really strict barrier between the two worlds and really leverage Canton to start to bridge the gap between them selectively where it makes sense and where it's

84. 36:01

    advantageous for all the participants awesome thank you very much thank you NAD and gentlemen was amazing to have you in the panel thank you very much and I hope you enjoyed the session thank you thank you